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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
112
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Posted - 2013.05.04 21:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a rookie pilot, developing a skill plan that will allow me to not only sit a battleship but fly it well, the proposed changes to the Amarr line up are worrisome. Should I have started with a differing race for faster access to better ships for L4 and PVP brawls? I am being pushed into skilling a longer time than other racial pilots in my position for less pay off due to cap and fitting needs. Even with good fitting skills, aside from the Armageddon, I will have to sacrifice combat effectiveness for cap gear in slots other pilots will not (regardless of stability.)
Re-balancing laser weapons from small to large with significant reductions to cap requirements could solve many and perhaps even most issues. However, itGÇÖs not something you can GÇ£get toGÇ¥ six months after releasing the re-balanced battleships as you kill them in the now. To me, the very idea that players are wanting to fit Abaddon with artillery is indicative of a larger problem than just the ship bonuses. NO patriot of Amarr should be be required to bring farty poop sticks rather than holy fire to divine battle for want of capacitor... Please fix this.
I think the Armageddon is a potentially interesting ship as proposed and that the Apocalypse can be saved with laser re-balancing. I am actually concerned about the Abaddon remaining as is. In my mind it is counterproductive to the objectives in re-balancing and tiericide to simply further hammer it into the niche of being only worthy of consideration as a null sec fleet ship. It needs some tweaking and added versatility to be considered a worthy alternative to the new and improved Gallente Hyperion, Caldari Raven, or even that Minmatar rust bucket.
On paper, to my eye, the Hyperion in particular appears to be a better ship investment for a starting pilot for ANY ROLE than the current proposed Amarr line up because you can do more with it well for less investment from start. I worry that I am skilling for a larger bait Maller or just a null blob unit rather than something I can go do FW, small gangs, PVE or what have you well with.
For the Abaddon, if you re-balance laser cap demands, drop a high slot for a medium, up the damage bonus, and improve the drone bandwidth and bay you would be looking at a more competitive ship for the investment that would have potential roles outside blobs too like the other race ships in its class. Sure the Hyperion would be a bit better in gangs and the Abaddon a bit better for fleets but they would both feel like competitive frames worthy of skilling GÇ£monthsGÇ¥ for. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 00:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
LuisWu wrote:Next time I read the "we care about the feedback" bulIsh*t I will laugh so loud that my neighbours are going to kick me out from the building.
Lots of good ideas in this thread, not a single elaborated dev response.
I am counseling myself to trust that they are reading, that they are debating what to do amongst themselves, and formulating a response. I want to think they do care. This rather than sitting around angry with the player base, not caring what we think or want, and simply planning to force through their vision regardless and under the opinion that we will adjust or just go away. Time will tell.
PS: YES, I am still hoping they will make my Abaddon lol. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 02:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Tank Talbot wrote:LuisWu wrote:Next time I read the "we care about the feedback" bulIsh*t I will laugh so loud that my neighbours are going to kick me out from the building.
Lots of good ideas in this thread, not a single elaborated dev response. I am counseling myself to trust that they are reading, that they are debating what to do amongst themselves, and formulating a response. I want to think they do care. This rather than them sitting around angry with the player base, not caring what we think or want, and simply planning to force through their vision regardless and under the opinion that we will adjust or just go away. Time will tell. PS: YES, I am still hoping they will make my Abaddon lol. Except, the changes are all Rise's pet project, and Rise is the one monitoring this thread, so if we dont like it, and the rest of the balancing teama sks "so what do they think, any suggestyions?" his resposne wll be "they love it, they cant wait for the changes, theys ay its the best theyve ever seen", and no one will bother to check because :why would they:.
I am not going to demonize the guy. Let's give him and other employees the benefit of the doubt and see what they have to say. I'll be at Amarr applying holy fire err... shooting arty at the statue with the rest of you otherwise. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 18:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Where in Satan questions the sanctity of marriage while attempting to lead the Righteous astray and into embracing the methodology of the heretic rather than fixing the Amarr Battleship inadequacies...
Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?
***
From my perspective, the issue boils down to a desire for a worthy, more cap stable, mission runner and general combatant (why we have combat role ships right?) to compete with the other races' ship line up rather than being stuck with what amounts to "just a hellcat," a pure sniper, and a drone ship. Right now, it feels like there is a big gaping hole in the Amarr line to most posters and they don't want to be forced to cross train to fill it as the other races don't have to. My solution was to "Hyperion-ize" the Abaddon, or to make it a more versatile and cap stable straight up brawler by: dropping a high slot for a mid, increasing the damage bonus to compensate, keeping 7 turrets and perhaps 2 launchers, adding more drone bandwidth and bay, and revamping laser cap costs to keep fiting reasonable for what you field. Other suggestions have been posted. I don't claim mine is the best but it at least starts to address the root problem. We want options to fly whom we like reasonably and not be forced into heathen hulls by default. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:Tank Talbot wrote: Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?
Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction. So shall it be written. So shall it be done.
Pfft... sell out. You just want to protect the "hell"-cat for "your" own ends, leaving us stuck with a null-coaster, rather than see Amarr gain a useful and worthwhile ship for everyone that brings balance to the empire ship options, ends the argument, and leaves mostly satisfied capsuleers all around. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 20:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tank Talbot wrote:Beast of Revelations wrote:Tank Talbot wrote: Even heaven and hell are in agreement that there is a problem! You see this CCP?
Be not deceived, for the Great Beast shall not be mocked. Again I say unto ye, embrace the path of the slave, the heathen, and the heretic races, for it is with their own methods and devices that they shall be brought to heel (and correspondingly, to hell). For the inferior races contain within themselves the seeds of their own destruction. So shall it be written. So shall it be done. Pfft... sell out. You just want to protect the "hell"-cat for "your" own ends, leaving us stuck with a null-coaster, rather than see Amarr gain a useful and worthwhile ship for everyone that brings balance to the empire ship options, ends the argument, and leaves mostly satisfied capsuleers all around. Uh, you misunderstand him greatly. He is suggesting we abandon the Amarr battleship lineup entirely to show them that it's not a good change. A strike of sorts. But since they don't really rebalance things based on what's used and what isn't, (or a few things would have been done differently, that's for sure), I don't see this as likely to succeed.
I get that actually. Some of the banter is meant tongue in cheek (yes, I really want a better Abaddon and was fighting for it, using the post to my own ends, regardless of truth LOL. Please forgive me that, perhaps a crime of love and politics.) But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 23:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Wait, people fly things above cruiser size in FW for things besides the final system bash? O-o I've been gone too long in that case. Also, for whatever reason, the Amarr side of FW is... to put it nicely, abominable. But everything is what you make of it, I suppose. Like I said, you have little worry of this happening. The hardcore Amarr pilots will do what they always do; kick ass with the ships that still work.
I wasn't looking to imply people were flying battleships in FW. I was trying to make a point about graduation. Why even start out as Amarr or think about taking their side when you will end up with sucky ships at the top end after months of training when you want to do other things too like run L4 for better income to support yourself... |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 07:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:Tank Talbot wrote: But you also express one of my worries. People giving up on Amarr battleships (and their other ships) because they have been designed out of too many roles leaving everyone else to do everything better for less investment. Talk about killing some rookie's play enthusiasm after skilling for months only to find no one wants their boats along for the show and they are not competitive. How to get new Amarr FW pilots and those that actually fly Amarr? Once people give up on a ship line it will take years to recover any momentum on several fronts. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. The Devs have long expressed that they don't care what all is wrong with the Abaddon so long as it continues in their preferred place for it in blob fleets. Sad, but true. They have even expressed that they really don't care how bad it and other ships are to begin with for PvE, and that these changes only make them worse, because in their opinion such pilots should just go and train for easier ships for it instead. (yea, great message to send out for those that like me started out PvE heavy and only gradually get into PvP "your ship sucks, get over it and train for something else.") I even tried getting ahold of our upcoming CSM 8 whom we elected into office, and was basically told "The Abaddon's issues are to small of an issue for us to waste our time on." So much for the Devs telling us to contact them about problems.
Every true Amarr patriot carries a GÇ£token of submissionGÇ¥ to the empress into rookie training. It is a thing we carry with honor placing the needs of the empire above our own. Do you still have yours? You see, sometimes we all need a reminder of what is important and who comes first. So, when it comes to CCP Rise, I am simply looking for the right and proper stick to beat him into submission with but I am struggling to find just the spot to swing for...
I donGÇÖt know how to bring their agenda into line with player desires expressed in thread yet for all ships. With tweaks there are opportunities for the Abaddon from better PVE performance to opening small gangs opportunities without making it OP or reducing the viability for the hellcat doctrines either. It should be noted that for the typical rookie, PVE provides the ISK for PVP and if you canGÇÖt get it you canGÇÖt do it so it shouldnGÇÖt be disrespected so much.
The CSM is beholden to other interests with their own issues that will be pushed to the forefront which in some cases run contrary to our own due to the rivalries and economics of null. It is not a platform of choice for the general player and they are going to have their hands full after Odyssey. I canGÇÖt see them as a reasonable ally here nor even invested in the issue with so much else coming to their plate. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
125
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 21:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Habakuk wrote:Hey!
The current plan is to update Singularity in the middle of next week, but I am not able to promise this date. I'll update this thread, if I am notified about any changes to this plan.
Mirror: Currently not planned, but the automatic reactivation of accounts should be in place by then (hopefully earlier).
This was posted on 4/30/2013. In a few more days the test server should be updated with the re-balanced ships per CCP. Considering, I doubt that further debate here will accomplish much of anything as the new vessels are likely set in stone. Somehow, I figure they are only open for tweaking in the future rather than actual substantive revision. I will be reading the Amarr ship threads there to see what some of you think when actually using them.
CCP Rise wrote: Exciting roles for every ship and every race - One of our main goals during this balance pass is to see that each battleship has a lot to offer, and that each race has access to all of Eve's environments. Formerly, the battleship line had strange overlaps and gaps which left certain races excluded from certain styles of play and other races with more than one option for a certain role. This new distribution should hopefully provide new options and excitement for players of all races.
I would save this quote. When you point out that the Amarr ships lack for options in a particular role and play style, if a DEV or other notable figure dares to tell you to train the ships of another race, you have the teams own written word to show a clear cut failure to meet their own purported design objective. There are gaps that were supposed to be fixed. I don't say that to be mean or disrespectful. Only to ensure a good outcome for everyone that keeps them and us on track to make for great game play. No one should be left to regret ever having trained to fly the most noble Amarr, rookie or vet.
Times I wish I didn't care so much about games.  |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
132
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 16:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh, stop demonizing poor CCP Rise. He has a job to do and no one is going to be one hundred percent happy with it. Have a little faith that he might know what he is on about. Do we really need our hand held, to plead for his undying attention and kisses to our buttocks? He is probably reading this or having the good stuff forwarded. DEVs have their own reasons for doing things that frankly will not always agree with our wants but really are intended for the good of the game. Maybe some of these seemingly insane capacitor stats are forward planning for whatever they intend to do with laser turrets after Odyssey? IDK. Make the best thread argument you can for your way of thinking and leave it at that without going mental.
I KNOW its frustrating. Sure, I am REALLY unhappy with the gaps in Amarr Battleship line up and the lack of versatility and ships for roles I feel should be covered. However, I am now hoping some of that can be fixed with the naval versions next re-balance. IGÇÖd love a tracking disrupter oriented EWAR ship and a versatile gunnery combatant to compete with the Gallente Hype at the battleship level. Maybe I can get what I want then? Maybe not.
If it all ends up being a trip to a Minmatar BBQ as the roast of honor and as horrible as feared we can gather at the statue in Amarr and throw down until they get the point. Until then, letGÇÖs show some patience and maybe try to figure out why they are balancing stuff as they are. I know its hard to belive but lets assume they arenGÇÖt stupid and have a reason for doing this. |
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arline Kley wrote: However, starting a thread, clearly stating that you will listen to the players, before utterly abandoning them is the reason people are not happy Tank. While I admit I have been probing towards CCP Rise, I just want him to actually read what the players are stating, rather than utterly relying on the "Metrics. " Sometimes our information comes to us via entirely different threads to this one.
I am not following the other threads. I assume he writes when warranted and otherwise wants to stay above the brawl. I leave it at that.
Arline Kley wrote: You do realise Tank, that the Naval versions of the ships are literally going to be the ships we are flying now, with just a fancy paint job. The problem most people are having with these changes is that they serve absolutely no purpose, other than to further punish players for trying to fly Amarrian ships. We don't want a ship that is stepping on the toes of 3 other ships, and neither do we want a ship that has zero bonuses to the supposed main weapons system of the Amarr. While having a ship that does another job is always welcome, trashing an entire racial battleship line for such is never welcome.
I know that Naval versions are likely to be tweaked versions of our new YUGOs. However, I once thought a geddon had to be a laser boat and an Apoc / badon able to shoot its guns for more than three volley before burning up its cap. Since that didnGÇÖt happen I was optimistic and hopeful other changes might be made to finally flesh out the Battleship roles for all of the race line ups too. I already noted how I felt about the train another race's ship line of thought in a previous post considering their expressed objective in this rebalance...
Arline Kley wrote: Unfortunately Tank, patience can only last for so long before we are get annoyed - given CCP's past history, it is better to err on the side of caution and understand that they don't actually have a clue what they are doing.
CCP is never going to recover rep from that whole boot.ini thing are they? |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 02:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Yeah I'm sick to death of CCP buffing Gallente if the Gallente pilots b i t c h for under 2 hours, and buffing Minmatar all the time cause CCP are biased f u c k s, and always either ignoring Amarr and the Caldari or give them the shaft.
I will admit that the buff to the Maelstrom in order to make it "a better fleet ship" rankles of all kinds of wrong (to the point of cheating) when you consider who uses it now and in what numbers. It makes it hard to excuse leaving the Abaddon as is considering. With that cap I guess they just want everyone fielding artillery. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 22:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
In my quest to bring holy fire to the heretic and the heathen it occurred to me that sometimes one has to look outside of their observable box in order to see a part of the greater divine plan in order to make sense of a world in which God appears to have fallen into a fit of madness. I think we would all agree that the traditional role of the battleship in high sec is ending with this re-balance as they simply are not cut out for it anymore.
The design team has made battleships into vessels comparable to battle cruisers in firepower with larger tanks yet too little cap to sustain fire for long durations. This seems to pan out across racial lines with only a couple of curious exceptions that might be oriented toward gang play. Then, could they be re-balancing battleships into the GÇ£pure over all nicheGÇ¥ of being just solid null sec (and sometimes low sec) blob fleet runners?
Maybe we are simply NOT supposed to be using the re-balanced and GÇ£re-nichedGÇ¥ battleships for level 4 missions and other traditional tasks in high sec when ships like the new naval harbinger come with a near battleship grade tank, ample firepower, and enough sustainable cap once skilled to do it well? They now fill that role and you could argue that it cuts down on the needed skill time for a rookie to earn good ISK off of missions. You only have to worry over battleship skills to blob. ItGÇÖs a null ship. A death of the battleshipGÇÖs true usefulness in high security space.
In such case the real question becomes, will people accept the new roles for battleships and the death of the old ones? The ships are actually fine for blob warfare.
IGÇÖd almost call it a troll of null and high. The objective of the re-balance wasnGÇÖt made clear limiting useful feedback they will care about and angering many looking at battleships from a traditional role viewpoint here in thread. With the upcoming changes in Odyssey null will need for industry. Care bear Raven runners will be skilled for null play. ItGÇÖs kind of crazy like some attempt to graduate the player base into new areas when they donGÇÖt want to go and those there donGÇÖt want them coming too. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
So, any of you flying the re-balanced battleships on the test server? With the large laser changes, how do they preform in actual play? |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
144
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 05:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:They were on test server (Duality) for last two weeks, approximately. Anything has changed?
I didn't think they had the large laser cap rebalancing on Duality during that time? Just the ships. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 17:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far: Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);
Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;
Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.
(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)
With the turret changes noted to the Abaddon, rather than just a larger cap increasing the recharge rate may be more appropriate considering. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 20:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Naso Aya wrote:... believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP. Just goes to show that he sucks at giving people grey hairs .. he should have allowed people to fit all neuts and then laughed maniacally when they realised that they have no hope in hell of actually using all that suction due to cap restrictions  Says it all really, they haven't hit tranquility yet, but somehow people think it's op, given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread the vast majority of which preferred the old Armageddon.
True. I wanted to fly an old style Armageddon as my first battleship in game. It was a mean ass laser boat with solid cap and good drone utility. That's an AMARR ship. The cap bonuses helped make it actually work in play and was not USELESS. Look what happened... Now? I am left to hope they fix the Abaddon because I doubt there is any way to bring back the real Armageddon and cross training at this stage is counter productive and slower than just starting anew. It's like I was killed by an announcement a week into play because I chose to start as a race some douche didn't like. (Please take that as an expression of emotion rather than an attack on some one.) |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
150
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 07:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Our feedback means nothing at this point outside of entertaining ourselves. Why should CCP post anything? They are going to push through all of the Odyssey changes no matter how we feel or think because THEY are satisfied and I am not sure enough players can be motivated to care to stop this until too late and after the fact. The entire battleship re-balance looks like a good idea to have thought on but terribly implemented here. If this is the plan, I honestly wonder if they should have just left the ships alone for now.
It would take a Jita riot level protest with statue shooting and unsub threats players are willing to back up to stop. This is the kind of material that might engender a slow population bleed instead because enough distaste has been created to see players quietly leave as there is no one thing to rally behind.
Odyssey has the potential to be the worst expansion on a substantive level in the history of EVE Online. From outright stupid ship re-balancing, overly simplified probing mechanics that remove play features, little radial wheels for PS4 like interaction, to exploration sites that play out like a mobile phone mini-game with a GW2 gift box loot barf. They thought these were good ideas making EVE more accessible? Where is the depth, detail, logical progression, and internal consistency?
You could just as well say its the start of an absolute throat slitting for qualities that made EVE special in order to try and cash in on dollars from the casual play market that will never enjoy this type of game. ItGÇÖs like attempting to sell tampons to a motorcycle gang. It is what it is. Quiet acceptance will free hands to include more such silliness.
Maybe I sound too doom and gloom? I need a positive perk me up. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Torp/Drone/Neut Geddon means i'm training amarr BS 5. My God.
Every person that was happy when they saw the ship at first got TROLLED by CCP when they actually tried to fit it to fly. It's like thinking you are getting a hot date only to find out that its with a transvestite after dinner once you peel off the dress and not swinging that way. The disappointment becomes palpable.
 |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 23:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Apoc, is a wash. It was fine before, it's fine but different now - the most stupid thing I read in this thread is *Amarrians* complaining about homogenization because a battleship almost no one used became a drone boat, whilst demanding Hybrid style stats to smoothen out the rough edges (ie, downsides ie ie, high cap use, fittings) of energy weapons. The Apoc is almost the perfect sniper with Mega Beams, and it get's ******** with Tachyons.
I think the award for thoughtless outburst in thread goes to some one actually claiming the Armageddon was a ship no one used for PVP or PVE, then nailing players for displaying some faction pride in a game that isnGÇÖt all about PVP in null sec, while referring to various players as dumb for desiring to reduce turret mounts and up damage bonuses to compensate in order to deal with fitting issues for battleships and increase their usefulness for skill points invested. GÇ£A lot of playersGÇ¥ presented some interesting ideas along those lines and not just about the Apocalypse. ItGÇÖs alright to disagree, to express how you feel, and most will even grant you the courtesy not to call you GÇ£just stupidGÇ¥ for it. Well, they would have done so... Enjoy your "PERFECT" sniper there pal. |
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 17:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Wherein Forest Gump ran from his issues but still wound up with a token diploma...
When a guy has to pretend to quote himself fallaciously in order to appear to be on the intelligent side of an argument we already know we are dealing with issues if not those actually thread intended. A guy whose greatest claim to fame is making a pretty model picture for a goon ship, claims no one ever used the Armageddon and that a cap bonus for laser weapons is useless with the current mechanics is simply hard to take seriously. Or maybe itGÇÖs like a recovering hooker once lamented: GÇ£a shiny head doesnGÇÖt always net a shiny penny underneath.GÇ¥
So you want your poor Dominix a little more kinky... Drooling over an Armageddon few here really want isn't going to make it happen. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 19:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Tank Talbot wrote:When a guy has to pretend to quote himself fallaciously in order to appear to be on the intelligent side of an argument we already know we are dealing with issues if not those actually thread intended. A guy whose greatest claim to fame is making a pretty model picture for a goon ship, claims no one ever used the Armageddon and that a cap bonus for laser weapons is useless with the current mechanics is simply hard to take seriously. Or maybe itGÇÖs like a recovering hooker once lamented: GÇ£a shiny head doesnGÇÖt always net a shiny penny underneath.GÇ¥
So you want your poor Dominix a little more kinky... Drooling over an Armageddon few here really want isn't going to make it happen. Well, I actually like Tornado, so kudos to Pattern for it. But he is completely wrong about Apoc, and about GedDomi we just agree to disagree, apparently he sees something in it we do not. Except "most of the people" thing [Clarc said], this is just beyond delusional.
Sure, I busted his balls a little hard with a wordy hammer (and obviously succeeded), but he set himself up for it the moment he began calling everyone whom he disagreed with just stupid while failing to explain his own view point on the issues adequately for consideration. I like the Tornado model too but cheap antics breed cheap in turn so forgive me that. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote: I didn't realise he had anything to do with the goons. Thing is though it was Armageddons with proper fleet support that completely crushed Fatal Ascension's territorial ambitions in delve last year. I know because I was there.
I wasn't actually linking him to the goons as much as "lightly" bashing the mentioned ship based on its prominent use in a tapped event we are all familiar with that inevitably (if unfairly) colors how it's viewed. Yes, the Armageddon of old crushed a lot of opposition through the years and was not an unpopular ship. Don't get me started on its loss. It's not something we are liable to see changed and I don't want to cry over it in posts.    |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 22:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have been very free with written words regarding my unhappiness on some issues but I remain respectful of the team no matter how strongly I disagree or question. This is frustrating as we are vested in our interest but letGÇÖs not beat CCP Rise with terms like dipshit. I didnGÇÖt expect it personally but I am glad he took the time to write.
I am very happy to read that they are still considering an overall balance pass on laser weapons in the near future and I would be inclined to agree that it has potential to fix many issues expressed with Amarr ships. I hope some consideration is given to variable damage types? The very idea that an arty based Abaddon is preferred over laser based rubs me as so wrong and no weapon system should be rendered so easily useless for warfare or be so... inflexible.
I think RiseGÇÖs denial that the Apocalypse is meant as a beam ship is at the root or displays the root cause of some confusion. We have been trained for years to see ships as more specialized by the system (Caldari Rails / Gallente Blasters for example.) We clearly have a drone specialized ship so shouldnGÇÖt we be looking for hulls specialized in pulse and beam lasers respectfully? Depending on how a laser weapon rebalance plays out it may actually be in our favor to keep quiet. But I would hate to see a new big glaring hole in the future ship line up as a result.
ThatGÇÖs where its at right now. ItGÇÖt too hard to guess how good the ships might be with rebalanced lasers even if we can say they are not up to par with the current system right now. That makes useful feedback a hard thing to provide in truth. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 02:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Some of this gets into the naval ship thread. Naval versions no longer HAVE to be just improvements to or a reworking of the base offering as can be seen with the Naval Armageddon. They can go in completely a different direction to fill needed roles in a raceGÇÖs line up. Personally, I canGÇÖt help but feel and think thatGÇÖs a good thing for everyone. We can all agree that the Naval Armageddon fills the needed versatile combatant role for missions and else awesomely while retaining a true Amarr spirit, if admitting the entry fee is higher. One issue with the line up is now solved?
Forgive me for repeating myself here due to relevancy but I am not sure I "get" the Apocalypse at this time in that I am having to look at it as something outside of what was considered its traditional role and the new role of projecting fire at longer ranges against smaller ships "reads sketchy" without seeing if improvements will be made to laser weapon's native tracking ratings in the weapon rebalance. Can it pin hole a HAC in this version or an INT or T3 effectively? If so the described role looks more worthy of filling to make a BS worth buying in the face of some steep cheaper competition. I'd like to read some thoughts on that from those that have tested it against such targets.
Sure, its frustrating right now. Many good Amarr have rent their clothing and self onto presenting the appearance of a messiah just GÇ£AFTERGÇ¥ the crucifixion. But it could still pan out alright. So its agreed that with the current laser weapon mechanics the ships look below par. However, could the developers be forward thinking people designing these ships for the new mechanics they are working on? If so, then are these ships actually a guide to figuring out what rebalanced lasers might look like even if they are not ready to release details publicly?
You see, I have a hard time thinking that they would go through the whole ship rebalance process and not prepare for the future and particularly a near one like a weapon rebalance. As fans we might think them stupid sometimes but lets give them the benefit of the doubt that comes with a professional pay check. What if rebalanced lasers are designed to fit these ships into the indicated role... |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 04:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
I just wanted to note that there is a new kind of computer virus on the loose that is transferable to humans by means of internet use. It makes people flip out and go crazy over peculiar little changes in the functionality of known systems. Victims express bouts of rage through posts and exhibit zombie like patterns in a sleepless malaise of constant posting. Its not considered highly contagious yet. The CDC has been notified and are working on a vaccine. There is no need for alarm. If you suspect some one of having fallen victim to this new and as yet unnamed virus please contact your local forum police with the details. Thank you for your consideration. Further details to be posted as they become available.
Again... There is no cause for alarm. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:
So... a 60km Mega Pulse Laser II (firing Scorch) with a tracking bonus isn't good enough? Why would you ever fit beams on an Apoc when you can use that? (well, maybe if you can't use T2 guns for lolscorch) Pulse apocs are still really good when engaging down and nothing has changed except they burn through cap faster.
I've been trying to come up with an armor rail ship which is at all competitive... and the Megathron has serious trouble matching the pulse Apoc against anything smaller than a battleship, especially now that they both get tracking bonuses.
Yes. Few have mentioned what the new Apocalypse can do with pulse which is where I have been quietly seeing it. I think you are being a little conservative at 60KM though. However, in fairness to the questioning players the Apocalypse was originally painted as a long range or sniping ship. The new Apocalypse is now something else and there isnGÇÖt a real dedicated beam / sniping option in the current line up to fill that role. Weapon or ship problem?
The bonus CCP was going to apply to the new Apocalypse ship per quote in the Naval BS thread was range and tracking but the CSM went against this saying it would be too hard to balance. That pushed it into this new, more niche, role. I kind of want the CSM podded for that. Let CCP designers decide what they can balance.
I do think CCP is right in saying that you donGÇÖt balance ships around weapon problems, you balance the ship and then fix the weapons. ItGÇÖs so hard to say where these ships really are without seeing what they do to beams and pulses in the rebalance.
I do think some people are letting the rebalance get to them in that its pushing them out of their old comfort zones and leaving them feeling aimless because they lack a stand in ship to replace it or continue their playing style with. There are also people lobbying with their own vested interests that donGÇÖt consider the point of view of other players. The current Naval BS thread is a good example where you can see null fleet runners viciously tearing into anyone that questions the Naval Apocalypse as that ship meets their needs.
I donGÇÖt know man. With so many vested interests feedback is so skewed as to be often questionable. So I am having to trust Rise knows what he is doing since I canGÇÖt always trust my fellows. LOL. |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
173
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:Shade Alidiana wrote:Seems this thread isn't constructive. Everyone points the same concerns and issues again and again and again. Erm? You call obvious issues, that people point over and over again, isn't constructive? What would you call constructive, then? Exalted happiness in every post? Obvious issue doesn't exists. Constructive would need actual arguments, pointing the imbalance relative to other ships (actually fitted and with a real scenario set up for the comparison). He is right in fact : whiners here are whining since page 30 because their pve ship cannot fit for cap stability on top of better performances than others races gunships. The concern of the viability of beams is actually problematic, but it have been said a lot already : the problem is huge because you can't make tachyon easy to fit or you kill railguns, and beams, with the buff of the laser thread, should now fit and be used more comfortably. Yet, people still cry because that's not enough for them. That's not constructive because there is no argument. In fact, the base of the problem is to think that laser ships should be as good at pve than minmatar or caldari ships with beams. That's way too restrictive to be a valid concern. On the same level, gallente should whine for their blaster ships to be as good as the others with blasters so their range should be increased (and the sad truth is that they are actually asking for this). The problem is that such a pve focused balance would only lead to homogenization. PvE being the fight between a human and a machine, there is always one best way to fool the AI, and one tool will be better than all the others. The solution is then not in the ships&modules but in the NPC&AI themselves. The problem is that whiners here are not asking for balance, like in "amarr should be able to do pve", but homogenization, like in "amarr should be able to do pve *this way like the others*". So, unless you can *prove* that amarr ships are subpar compared to the others, using them in their own way -- which mean they have no niche, or a too small niche (fleet pvp is not a small niche, and if a ship is very good at this, that is actually enough, because a lot of ships have a lot less living space) -- you are only crying.
Where there is ample smoke their is ample fire. I think you are being too flippant in dismissing player upset so readily as whines and crying. Just because you donGÇÖt yet personally see the issues as having merit doesnGÇÖt make them wrong. I do think however getting to the heart of the matter is hard with so much smoke.
The fact you want to divide ships into PVE or PVP usage so readily is an issue in viewpoint that I feel will put you at odds with far too many other players and their desires for play. You canGÇÖt balance a ship entirely around one or the other without ruining the game for some one. I preferred it when ships where balanced around a combat method and against each other be it close range, long range, general combat, logistics, probing, or EWAR, with players then encouraged to GÇ£go find their own game useGÇ¥ for the ship be it a PVE or PVP activity. The racial differences in ship philosophy provided enough spice that they never felt homogenized and the various hulls useful for a variety of tasks. ThatGÇÖs not true anymore and they have a right to be angry when so many play styles have been affected.
Your comments regarding the Naval Armageddon help exemplify this issue. It has been shoved into GÇ£a smaller niche thatGÇÖs too well definedGÇ¥ rather than balanced around an improved combat role. The huge signature radius will limit it to a usage outside of blobs (where its too easily sniped) and push it into solo (like missioning) and small gang activities where the drone bay and sustainable cap will be of immense benefit. Remove the sig and drone bay it starts to lose its niche.
You see, in order to meet their (CCPGÇÖs) stated design objective (Original Post) in the battleship rebalance and make sure that each race has a ship to fill a role their focus on narrow, more defined GÇ£niches" has required them to abandon making Naval versions improvements of their T1 counterparts because they canGÇÖt fill those missing roles otherwise. If they had stuck to designing around combat method for lack of better terms everyone could have been satisfied more readily and Naval hulls continued in the tradition of just improvements.
The hand tried to be too sweeping perhaps in this revision. I canGÇÖt help but worry that might be a bad thing on the larger scale in time.
The laser weapon issue is bigger than this thread and the core problems larger than just fitting. A simple change such as adding some variety and equal value to the secondary damage type perhaps with degrading stock crystals could keep laser weapons useful in combat doctrines in a age of play where resistance fittings too easily render them useless to the point of seeing them abandoned. Abaddon pilots should never prefer artillery. Just fitting EM / Therm resists alone resists ships should never trump an entire ship line up and their weapon of choice when everyone else in the galaxy can just change ammo.
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
ExAstra wrote: You are correct that hybrids mix thermic/kinetic fairly evenly (55/45 or 50/50 depending on ammo) but your comment about "every other race gets to pick damage types" is baloney because Gallente and Caldari (minus missile boats) can't. Which means a vast amount of ships in the game can't do it.
I didnGÇÖt GÇ£quiteGÇ¥ say that either. You can accuse me of an exaggeration in driving a point home but the fact remains that half the major weapons systems (or more depending on how you classify drones) can and the ships specializing in those limited two have fallen out of favor in part because of it as they are too easily countered. Missiles in particular are seeing buffs this round. Perhaps, hybrid ammo needs some work once they get to medium rails? But none of that changes the fact that laser crystals are deserving of a look now.
Bouh Revetoile wrote: ... In the end, the Armageddon, as hated as it can be from amarr fanatics, is the best pve machine amarr could dream of.
Speaking of exaggerations, a T1 Armageddon is not a good PVE GÇ£dream machine.GÇ¥ ItGÇÖs a drone and nuet ship. Most other ships to the point of cross training would be favored before hand because it has been shoved too firmly into a gang and support GÇ£nicheGÇ¥ with the rebalance. There is no ship in the T1 Amarr line up I would take over the Naval Armageddon for PVE right now amongst a few other things and with the way costs are looking to pan out I figure most people looking to fill that role will jump right to it. ThatGÇÖs its niche. All these niche ships where we used to have more flexibility to pick what we wanted...
ExAstra wrote:...The Abaddon should never be cap stable, in my opinion.
It depends on how we choose to define cap stable. If a ship canGÇÖt sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective. I can forgive a shipGÇÖs cap buckling under the pressure of maintaining an active repair unit for its size class in conjunction with everything else after a couple of minutes but if it canGÇÖt shoot its own guns... Am I expecting too much out of battleships? Even of a buffered Abaddon? |

Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:[
" If a ship canGÇÖt sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."
So, yes, they are asking for the Abaddon to be cap stable. And I will agree that needing 2 rigs to fire the guns for any decent length of time would be frustrating, and as I've said multiple times I recognize that the Abaddon has capacitor issues. But making the Abaddon cap stable with MWD running is completely ridiculous. Offer it the ability to fire the guns at around ~35% cap stability (before MWD drawback) and wouldn't that be good enough? Give it a scaled up capability comparable to the Maller/Thorax you brought up. Would that be enough for you (alongside the upcoming energy buffs?)
GÇ£I" wrote: "If a ship canGÇÖt sustain the fire of its own guns under burner then there is an issue from my perspective."
I never wrote anything about operational micro warp drive cap stability. I wrote about operating under burner (after burner.) It consumes roughly half the cap of an active MWD in the Battleship class. Firing its guns and running under burner without running out of cap is mainly a PVE consideration. Actual cap stability refers to being able to fire all weapons and use ALL active modules fitted onto the ship without running out of cap including armor repair modules. I never requested nor has any one requested true cap stability in such case out of the Abaddon or frankly any of these ships.
You have falsely twisted what GÇ£I wroteGÇ¥ and used it like a dagger against a large group of people to paint them as somehow stupid and wanting too much. You are using a false argument against true GÇ£cap stability" to throw a fit. . It's alright to disagree with me and if you really feel like calling names I guess I am a target. Fine you think "I" am stupid. Don't skew it against everything and one in an effort to prevent better ship balancing for the Amarr. If your real worry is over Gallente ships then go argue over them. |
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Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 18:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yep. Got quoted before I could fix it after reading the chart wrong. I'm a newb. What's his excuse? ;)
Now leave me alone. I feel bad.  |
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